Tracy Frost and Dr. Kate Sixt, DoD Research and Engineering OUSD

Lauren Bedula 06:16 welcome back to Building the Base. Lauren Bedula and Hondo Geurts here for our special series with the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering. We're really excited to be doing this deep dive with the team, and today we'll be focused on DoD Technology, Industrial innovation base, which is something we're very excited to talk about because aligns with most of our shows, and then also biotechnology specifically. So, joining us, we have Ms. Tracy Frost, who's the Director of Technology, Industrial innovation base, and Dr Kate Sixt, the principal director for biotechnology, and R and E Ladies, thank you so much for joining us. Tracy Frost 06:53 Thanks for having us. Hondo Geurts 06:55 So, we'd like to start the show kind of giving our listeners a little bit of a background with where folks how they got involved in national security, what kind of motivated them? So, what's the story, guys, how did, how did you go from wherever you grew up to getting into national security? Tracy Frost 07:12 Yeah, so thanks. A great question. I love kind of telling my story anyway, because in terms of kind of how I got here and what kind of how my interest kind of grew I grew up in South Florida, and my stepdad actually worked as a mechanic in a shipyard, and was a commercial fisherman for a long time, and then they started actually building fishing boats. And so, he just kind of worked his way into that position of working on building those boats. And so, I grew up kind of running around a shipyard, around a machine shop. I always joke that the smell of diesel reminds me of like fond childhood memories. And I just I watched, you know, folks learn how to like weld, and you see and see machines. And it was just really fascinating to me, and to kind of see all the pieces come together, to actually then build this final product, right of this, this boat. And so, I from there, you know, going into college, I actually didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I started off at the community college because it was a little, it was a little easier for me to work and go to school. Wasn't sure what I wanted to major in. And I was talking to a counselor one day, and I said, you know, I really, I'm kind of bored, and I want to take some more math classes. And she looked at me and said, you're signed up as a communications major. And she's like, communications majors don't want to take more math classes. I think you want to look into engineering or something like that. So, I actually met somebody at the university that our community colleges were tied to, and they told me about the ocean engineering program. And I thought, That sounds fascinating. It's mechanical engineering, but you learn a little bit more on underwater acoustics and corrosion. And so, I thought, this is kind of fascinating. I went the next day, signed up for the program, and that was that, was that. So, yeah, work my way through. And I went to Florida Atlantic University, and they work a lot with the Navy, and so that's how I kind of got tied into the military, and just really was fascinated by the work that they did and the mission, and just got very excited about being a part of national security. And that really was like my entry way into the to the lab system. And then here now at OSD Lauren Bedula 09:14 Love it. Thanks Tracy, Kate, what about you? Dr. Kate Sixt 09:18 Yeah so, I think that my story takes me back to childhood as well. And in my childhood, I was highly influenced by the first Gulf War and the role of technology in that war and so I continue to be interested in what made technology advance and how national security worked as a driver to advanced technology. And then at the same time, I decided I wanted to study neuropharmacology, so I did that, and I was really interested in the brain as well. And so, I decided I did know what I wanted to do, right when I went to school and got my undergraduate degree and my PhD in neuropharmacology. And. Studied how cells communicate with each other, and how the brain, the brain works and, but I never could shake this desire to get back to the understanding of emerging technology in in the development of, you know, in national security, and how, how the two interplay, and how major, major advances are driven by national security challenges. So that led me, at this point, to working for R and E, to look at the emerging technology and biotechnology and how that plays into the role of national security. Lauren Bedula 10:34 How interesting. So, let's fast forward to today, and maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you're working on in RNA, so Tracy, maybe we can start with you. Tracy Frost 10:43 Yeah, sure. So, my office focuses, in general, on manufacturing, right, and mostly advanced manufacturing. So really, taking all the great science and technology developments and research and the work that goes on, we have an incredible innovation base right from our lab system to our small businesses, and taking that work and actually translating it into a product is really right, what we call the valley of death. And sometimes it's just we're not ready for it, but other times it really is. The manufacturing piece. Can we make it? Can we make it at a cost that's reasonable? Can we make something in the quantities that we need, right? And that was really tested, as we saw, I think, you know, more publicly, really opened up during COVID, where people saw we had to make things fast and quick and with a limited, or more challenged supply chain. And so that's really what we do in the industrial base. Work is focused on that supply chain, growing small businesses in the country, really marrying up when you like, when you get lower into the supply chain, it really becomes very similar for commercial needs and defense needs, right? So that's where our small businesses come into play. And prior to my position here, I ran the SBIR and STTR program, which focuses on Small Business Innovation. So, my heart really is with the small businesses, and I love making sure we're connecting with the larger companies and ensuring that they can be a really secure supply chain for us. So that's really the piece that I focus on. There are multiple priorities in the research and engineering office here, under the undersecretary of honorable Shyu, but right now, I know we're going to focus on biotech, which is such a fantastic example of how the industrial based programs are taking manufacturing and really translating technologies like biotech that's fairly nascent, but yet there are a lot of small businesses really working in this space and translating that to actual products. And I think it's fascinating when you hear Dr six talk about, as she's teaching me all the applications at biotech can support. It's just incredible to me. Lauren Bedula 12:48 Kate, can you tell us a little bit about that? Dr. Kate Sixt 12:50 Yeah, I can and say, you know, when we talk about all the different applications it can support, and, you know, learning about it, I'm learning a lot about it, and the companies teach me new things every day with it. It's a fascinating space to be in. And so, taking a step back for where biotechnology has been in the department in the past is that biotechnology has actually been in the department since the Civil War. So, and then during the Civil War, we advanced military medicine, and that was when biotechnology came in to play. And so we see that development throughout the department in military medicine, and advances through that we also see it in areas of defending against biological weapons, and those are kind of the two primary places where biotechnology has played a role in the department for decades, but now we're actually able to capitalize on many advances that are happening in biotechnology that are, in addition to novel ways of bio manufacturing of vaccines and medical supplies, we can actually use biotechnology to make materials and chemicals. So, the things that are in your Lululemon clothing can come from biotechnology and in your Adidas shoes. And so those materials we can make fuels, we can make a variety of different things, just because we can program our microbes and different organisms to make new things. And so really, what we've done, too, is we've opened up the space. Because in chemistry, we're limited by a lot of our starting materials. And in biology, you have a larger chemical space that you can actually investigate with it. So, you actually have more molecules available to you because we're using biology than we had previously had with just using chemistry. So that combination, it's not that we don't use chemistry. We use them both, and that's really important, that interplay. So now what we're doing is we're working on pulling those advances that have been happening in the department, in our labs and in earlier stages, and pulling those across to scale them and make things at scale so that now the fuel that we knew we could make at small scale, we can make it a large scale in boutique fuels, really important fuels that that you. That are important for our different weapon systems, and we can bring those forward, and those can, we can make those at scale and provide those to our missions. Hondo Geurts 15:09 Now that's super exciting. You know, we've, I think, over time, been a little conflicted in industrial policy, as, on one hand, we want to just let the market do what the market does, or, on the other hand, think of things in very national security, military specific kind of slivers, it seems to me here in both of you, we're starting to think in a much more blended way. Is that your sense and maybe what programs or initiatives you guys have underway that are trying to kind of bring everybody together and not just separate a purely bio commercial thing or a purely military product or process. Tracy Frost 15:49 Yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. We are. We see the value in leveraging our partnerships with industry, again, small business all the way through the large primes, but also moving out of the space where nontraditional members, and not only from this on the small business side, which I think we talk about a lot, but also nontraditional from the larger companies. We obviously all know we have very specific sort of defense prime contractors and our OEMs, but when you look at commercial companies that are creating things like you mentioned Kate, mentioned shoes, right? You mentioned Adidas, like working with companies the military obviously buys shoes for our war fighters, but also obviously the commercial sector. So there really is, I think, a larger space of commonality than maybe we had focused on in the past that we're really recognizing that value and efficiency of working together. The input that we've received from industry is, you know, there are multiple pathways in commercial sort of pathways we could go down, but by taking road maps of their priorities and the defense priorities and overlaying them, we're really seeing where that space is that, again, is more efficient if we can work together, as they say, all boats rise, right? And Hondo Geurts 17:05 Kate, where are you seeing that from a technology standpoint, like, What's blowing you away? In a you mentioned a couple, but in, in a, say, commercial world that maybe we haven't thought of as much in on the national security side. Dr. Kate Sixt 17:20 Yeah, so definitely in the way that we use feed stocks, and in this case, our feed stocks are what we give to the microorganisms, or the different organisms that are then going to produce a material at the end. So, we do have to feed them. They're hungry, just like us, and so they, they need, they need some sort of sustenance. And it's, it can be things like that are sugar rich, like corn and beets and such. But it can also be things that are different types of grasses, different types of just starting materials that we actually have a lot of across the country. So, a combination of working with Department of Agriculture and working with our farmers and what they're growing to be able to feed those and use those supplies. And then on top of that, we can actually use things that that aren't grown in the ground, but that we're producing as waste. And that sort of waste reclamation and seeing the ability to do carbon capture off of waste from steel mills, that's a really important source of carbon that the organisms can use, and they can harness, but it also provides a different type of feed stock and a different service too. Lauren Bedula 18:30 That's wild, and you've talked quite a bit about how you're working with the private sector, whether it's farmers or some of these small, innovative companies that are doing business with the Department of Defense. What does that public private collaboration look like? Or how does industry get in touch with you for these types of engagements? Dr. Kate Sixt 18:49 Yes, so in biotechnology, I think that there's, there's a couple of different ways. So, the first is we have a public private partnership, and Tracy will be able to talk more about that BioMADE. And then the second is that we have our distributed bio industrial manufacturing program that we just kicked off. And in this case, what we're really doing is there's a space in increasing the manufacturing for bio manufacturing that private capital is not investing in. It needs to be de risked. And so, I think that there are specific roles for the government. They're limited and they and they need to be focused and tailored for that, but that can allow us to meet our national security goals, meet our domestic manufacturing goals, in securing the supply chain, and also build that base so that then it can be self-sustaining on its own. And so, through that program that we just launched earlier this year. There's a variety of ways that companies can apply for that. As different calls go out, we've had a robust response from industry. It's we knew there was a lot going on. We knew there were a lot of companies in this space. We were still blown away by the response and. Interest of the of the companies in in supporting the DOD needs, while supporting their commercial applications as well. It's a wonderful partnership, and we're really, we're really fortunate as a country to have it. Tracy Frost 20:11 Yeah, Kate mentioned the public private partnership BioMADE, so that's under a larger program called manufacturing innovation institutes, the department, event sponsors, nine manufacturing innovation institutes in different technical spaces that are priorities for the department, and the focus of those are to again, roadmap with industry and find out where the commonalities are in priorities and invest heavily in those spaces. So BioMADE is doing just that with industry. So that's another avenue for industry to from small businesses too large to kind of get into the work that the government's doing. We heavily rely on that partnership. So, we need the companies that are working in this space to join. But in addition to what I would call, I guess, biotech companies, we also look for companies that you wouldn't really think of that are like, like, for example, automated automation companies, robotic companies, companies focus companies focused on robotics. Right? Joining these institutes because they are giving, they're providing the sort of framework for actually doing the manufacturing in spaces they may not have been working in in the past, and they don't realize there's a connection and a need there. So, I think any type of company that is interested in the manufacturing process or and in this case, biotech itself, should look into that. And you can find that as easily on the on, you know, Google, it on the websites. Dr. Kate Sixt 21:38 I'd say too, also in those priority areas that we're investing in, and we have, we have specific priority areas that we're looking in, and they include things like, you know, munitions and propellants and such. And so, these aren't companies that traditionally were biotech companies before. So, if there are companies that are making something that is of importance to DOD, but they'd like to make it another way, or they'd like to expand that. That's a great way to partner up and marry those, those advances in one type of technology for one type of product with biotechnology to now have another way at it. Hondo Geurts 22:14 So, Kate, I feel like a dog watching TV. You're listening to all the bio tech, neuro farms, and we're recording in the Pentagon, which I just have to laugh talking about neuro pharmacy in the Pentagon. But help me understand, you know, one I think the challenges we've had in bringing manufacturing back to the US is all the regulatory and, you know, these precursor chemicals can be pretty nasty, environmentally challenging, expensive to recapitalize. Do you see that there's a way some of these bio-based precursors can be fabricated in a way that doesn't bring back all of the challenges of a chemically based and capital intensive, regulatory intensive setup that we maybe are used to that left the country decades ago? Dr. Kate Sixt 23:01 I think there is, but I think it has to be done smartly. So, with any new manufacturing or any new technology, as you stand it up, you could do it the right way, or you could do it the wrong way, and there are ways that you could still have an impact on the environment. And so, we have to be cautious of that and understanding that. But for sure, using bio manufacturing, the one of the primary differences is now you're working in a water-based phase versus an oil-based phase, right? So, petroleum-based chemistry requires to require certain other types of kind of noxious chemicals to remove those petroleum contaminants out of it as you've made it. You don't have that necessarily, in a water based in a water based with biology, right, which is water based so that's, that's a one example of how that changes it. But yes, you can. You can definitely do things in a in a less toxic way if we do it deliberately and set that up and think about that. Hondo Geurts 24:02 And Tracy, you have, you know, a long history of working with small businesses, both here in this role and in your previous role of running that in the Navy. What advice do you have for small businesses that want to work with DoD or national security? You know what works well, what doesn't work well, you know, after all, you know, what would you tell them? Our listeners who are interested, and we're always amazed by how many more people want to support national security now than maybe five or 10 years ago. But just maybe don't know how to do it the right way. Tracy Frost 24:38 Yea it's tough as a small business, and I understand we, you know, at the Pentagon, probably it seems like there's, it's tough to break in to the connect with the right people. My big recommendation is a couple things. Check out the websites. There's a lot of contact information on the websites. If you, you know, once you get to one person, we can usually get you around to the right, right office. So. Um, two would be some of the small business conferences that are around, or, in this case, like any biotech conferences, you know, if the government's going to be there, I'd recommend, you know, attending and kind of catching us there. And I think, in general, yeah, I guess I'm trying to think of the other, like avenues to kind of connect with us. But really, I think the website is the best. There's contact information on there to be able to reach us. Lauren Bedula 25:25 It's great to hear about the several different initiatives that you mentioned and how important industry is to your work. Kate, one thing you had mentioned was private capital and where they may or may not be investing. Can you talk a little bit about how you're interacting with those communities on the investment side, venture capitalists and others. Dr. Kate Sixt 25:43 So I think that that so biotechnology is a place where, historically, especially when, when markets are tough, that is seen as risky by venture capitalists, not across the board, but generally speaking, and also sometimes the time frames are longer in that when we're talking about scaling technology, you are talking about a large capital investment right to be able to do that, to be able to build that equipment and bring that in and so there's risk on that. So, part of that de risking, you know, happens on the government side for that. But then we're also interested in in working specifically with the venture capitalists and seeing, you know, what sorts of, what sorts of investments that we make that can change how, how they interact, as well, with the with this type of industry, I'd also say that we're also working with the Office of Strategic capital. And the Office of Strategic capital within the DoD has put out its strategy, and biotechnology is one of those strategies. So, if you haven't talked with them, they're probably a good group to talk to about the role of venture capital and the role of capital in the in the DoD and what goes hand in hand here. Lauren Bedula 26:53 We often say technology is incredibly important, but at the end of the day, this is a human endeavor, and folks like you are driving strategies, policies, investments, decisions. What do you think about talent right now? Are you seeing folks get engaged in this community? What's your take on the workforce? Tracy, we'll start with you. Tracy Frost 27:16 Okay, yeah, I think in general, just across the manufacturing space, I could talk at that level. Kate, probably address more the biotech specifics, but in general, we need more people, and I think understand, especially our students, kind of coming out of high school and even in middle school, thinking about these, you know, what they want to do for their, you know, careers. We need people, everything from, you know, technicians, which don't always require, you know, four-year college degree. They're easier to get certificates, quicker to get into the workforce. Have well-paying jobs all the way through the PhD level, right? So, kind of, depending on where your interest is in pursuing kind of longer-term education, I think there's a role for everybody. It's really, do you have the passion and the drive to want to learn new things, to be involved in, like exciting technology that's on the cutting edge, that's there's a role for you. There are many programs in the department that support scholarships, again, from technician level, trade schools, community colleges, all the way through to the higher education, like PhD level. So, I just want to make you know, I always like to make sure when I speak to students, to let them know there's a role for you no matter what. And this is such an exciting field, um, all of the technologies, but particularly biotech, that if you want to be involved, we can help you find a space. Lauren Bedula 28:36 Any thoughts Kate? Dr. Kate Sixt 28:39 I think that Tracy covered it really well for the on the manufacturing side, and in that development, I think the other place that I would suggest looking and thinking about for people who are interested in getting involved is on the on things that seem more periphery but actually are central to developing this. One of those is supply chain modeling. Supply Chain modeling is incredibly important and understanding, if we're going to say, hey, we'd like to replace part of this with a bio derived solution, we have to know, well, how much is made. What difference would that make? Do you have the model to actually tell you how that would work? So, bringing in supply chain modeling, and then the other place would be in precision engineering standards, so in biomanufacturing, you're really talking about a novel area of manufacturing. The engineering standards have not been worked out there. How we're going to measure what's going on inside a giant fermenter, fermenters that are, you know, several, several stories high, right, where the wind is blowing you off of them, when you climb up to the top of them, right? How do you measure what's going on in there? So, it's not the same, it's not homogenous throughout it. And so, we need the precision engineering standards to be able to develop the industry to be interoperable. It's very important with our allies and partners to have that interoperability. But so those sorts of standards development and supply chain models, things that are at the that seem like they're peripheral. But actually, central to the development and pushing it forward. Lauren Bedula 30:03 I want to hit on supply chain once more. I know we talked about some hurdles to shoring up critical manufacturing, but any additional thoughts on supply chain security as a priority for you all? Dr. Kate Sixt 30:14 Yea we need to understand the layers down. So, supply chain modeling can often go just a few layers deep. And so, one of the things that you know that keeps me up at night is if we have one component that now we've said, Yes, we have it, and we can make it domestically, but I can't make the final product because I have all these other components that are not part of that. So, where those lie in? And that's those lower tiers of supply chain. And that's actually one of the real promises of bio manufacturing, for this is that you can make industrial chemicals, the industrial chemicals that we need for almost all of our products. They lie at very low levels of that supply chain. It's very far back to get there. We can make those domestically in the US through bio manufacturing, through a new method. Hondo Geurts 30:59 So, Tracy, you know when I was in the department advanced manufacturing, 3d printing, edited manufacturing, were kind of the talk of the town, and the department was working really hard to create that, you know, all the standards. Does that give a good model for us to think about bio engineering and how are we progressing on the other areas of, I would say advanced manufacturing within the department, that maybe gives us a pathway as we think about new technologies like bio technologies. Yeah, Tracy Frost 31:30 I think there's several advanced manufacturing technologies that kind of underpin other areas. And so, like you mentioned, additive 3d printing, that's, that's one of those areas that really enables other areas right. It really can. It's sort of a foundational piece. I think biotech can kind of be seen that way as well. It's going to enable a vast number of products potentially right. And same thing with it gives you another way to make something right, and that something can be almost anything. And so, I think the big part in additive, what we saw was like qualification, certification really was kind of the long pole in the 10, as they say. And so, in order to create standards, we really have to work with industry, because everybody has to be on the same page, right? And so, I think you Okay, talk a little bit about that for biotech as well. I think it's kind of some of the same challenges. So again, I think we have a lot of internal sorts of working groups that consist of, you know, all of the military services and all of the OSD agencies working together, kind of pushing forward into the same space. So, I think the same thing has to happen, and that's one thing that Kate has been fantastic at doing, is bringing all of the relevant investments and experts within the department and now with the public private partnership within industry, and bringing them together and creating a strategy that they can all focus on and move forward in. And that's something fantastic that Kate has put together that strategy and corralling all the right people to move forward together. Hondo Geurts 33:10 So, Kate, if we're as successful as I expect, you two leaders will drive us. Where are we going to be in 10 years? Where would you see this going in 10 years? Dr. Kate Sixt 33:20 I think that you would not know that your stuff was made by biotechnology. That's what I don't. I don't want it to be where somebody said, Oh, and it was made by biology. It just won't know. Do you Do you know how your clothing is made, right now, right? We don't. We don't know where that is, and that's what I'd like to see. Lauren Bedula 33:39 Any thoughts Tracy? Tracy Frost 33:41 No, I think Kate's exactly right. It's we, these are these. Are these, the advanced manufacturing technologies we work on a lot of times are just the mechanism, right? And as you said, a lot of people don't really understand or know where, how things are made, but that's kind of the point, right? As I guess you'll end up with a product and it should function either the same way or better, and it doesn't really, at the end of the day, I want to say it doesn't matter how it's made. It matters to us because we need it made. But in a way, it's a product that functions. And I think if your kind of, we kind of bring it back to national security, particularly to our military and our troops. Do they really care how something is made? They just need it to function when they need it. They need to get the quantities again, of the product they need and where they need it, right. So, there's a big impact to, you know, with, you know, challenge supply chains and getting what we need to our military wherever they're at and whenever they need it. So, I think that's a great point that Kate made. Lauren Bedula 34:40 I’m going to go back to the topic of talent to close out. And it's amazing to watch you two as women leaders in this office under the honorable Under Secretary Shu as well. Do you have any advice to other women breaking into the national security and technology fields? Tracy Frost 34:59 Yeah, I think it's I think it said not to be intimidated by the work. I think your curiosity and tenacity can lead you to a lot of places. I don't want to say that I wasn't a smart student. I think I was. I like to do a lot of things, and so I think I had a hard time kind of figuring out where my focus was, because I wanted to be involved in everything. Well, now I actually have a job where I get to oversee a lot of different technologies and areas, so it's a perfect fit for me. But I think just don't be intimidated. I think technology has, again, there's a role for everybody in it, no matter where your interests lie. So just try to meet people that are doing cool stuff ask them a lot of questions. I love when we get to meet with students and talk to them and just let them know that it is possible, and you don't have to be a perfect student or perfect in math. And I think unfortunately, a lot of girls can be kind of a lot of, a lot of young girls can be sort of turned away from math, if it, you know, at some point in their in their education. And I think it's important to realize you don't have to be perfect at it, and it's hard, and so when you work at it, you'll get there. If this is something that's fun and interesting, don't give up on that, right? And find mentors that have been there before and talk to those women as well. Lauren Bedula 36:18 Love it. Kate, any thoughts? Dr. Kate Sixt 36:21 Yeah, I think on the point of mentorship, I'd say, Don't presuppose who your mentors will be. You find mentorship in the most unlikely of places sometimes, and there you get the most interesting and worthwhile nuggets from them. And so, I don't know where I'd be without, without those unexpected mentors in my life and so and I'm just I feel very fortunate, and I'm sure that people coming forward will feel fortunate in the same way. Lauren Bedula 36:48 Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing your stories and also the work you're currently focused on. It's so important. We're grateful to have you in there fighting the good fight. So, thank you both so much. Dr. Kate Sixt 36:58 Thanks for having us. Tracy Frost 37:00 Thanks.